Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball

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Conference Player of the Year article effort – progress update[edit]

Time for an annual progress update. The following CPOY templates are complete: A-10, American South, ACC, America East, AAC, American West, Big 12, Big East, Big Eight, Big South, Big Ten, CAA, C-USA, East Coast, Great Midwest, Great West, Horizon, Metro, Midwestern, MVC, Mountain West, Pac-12, Patriot, SEC, SoCon, SWAC, SWC, West Coast, and WAC.

Below are the number of articles needed to complete the rest:

Since last check-in, we've completed the East Coast Conference and Southwest Conference pages, and knocked out about 10 random articles spanning the other pages. We're getting closer every month to completing this high-priority task, but we've still got a ways to go. Keep up the good work. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:11, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the update. I may be ready to re-engage with article creation and have a few CPOY players on my articles to create list. Rikster2 (talk) 00:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just a note that currently there are 11 additional CPOYs for 2023 who do not have articles. Rikster2 (talk) 14:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Darrick Suber[edit]

There's only one player I'm interested in claiming at the moment, NEC POY Darrick Suber (1993), if that's ok. Everyone else is a "welp, we'll have to make the article eventually"-level interest to me. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bob Scrabis (basketball)[edit]

I've done Bob Scrabis (basketball) (help welcome expanding it) since I was a Princeton Cheerleader during his freshman season, I feel the connection. I don't know if this is my last because you could probably rope me into a Chicago (DePaul, Northwestern, Loyola, UIC, Chicago State) player if any remain.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:16, 17 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nothing on eurobasket for this guy. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Kenny Williams (UIC basketball) now Kenny Williams (basketball, born 1972)[edit]

Thanks Tony. Kenny Williams (UIC basketball) is missing from the Summit League list (obviously if you found a birth year create in using that). Rikster2 (talk) 12:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:Rikster2, I'll surely give Williams a shot.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:29, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Any idea why our Kenny Williams is not listed here?
Wait I see him as Illinois-Chicago.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No birthdate yet, but he went to Lyons Township High School (class of 1990) and shared the backcourt with a John Hornacek. Same high school as Jeff Hornacek (class of 82), whose father is named John.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unable to find Birthdate. Currently at Kenny Williams (UIC basketball). Welcome to move to Kenny Williams (basketball, born c. 1972), since his senior year was 1990. I defer to the expertise of others on the prefered location. Anyone who knows what is best can then list him at Kenny Williams.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also this non-RS claims he played 10 years of international pro ball including Spain. I am not an international BB researcher.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is a profile that matches the details in the wiki article. There is no full birthdate but it does list 1972 and "Full name: Kendall Ovial Williams". DaHuzyBru (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is Kendall Ovial Williams behind a paywall that I can not see?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:DaHuzyBru, User:Rikster2 If you guys are pointing me to that, should I assume it is reliable enough to move his article to Kenny Williams (basketball, born 1972)?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This 2007 source says "35-year-old point guard Kenny Williams", so 1972 is probably accurate. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:30, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here are some old profiles I have found on him [1] [2] [3]. They all have conflicting day and month, but 1972 appears consistent. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:DaHuzyBru any chance you could jump in on the infobox (and prose, i guess) for this guy. I am out of my depth.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:24, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:DaHuzyBru, thanks for the assistance. I am a bit confused on the two sources that we have for birthdate. I don't see either Turk Telekom or Asseco Gdynia in the infobox chronology. I also thought I saw a Polish League all-star somewhere on a link you have sent.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can't verify the Turk Telekom info, so I'm not sure if he ever played for them. Asseco Gdynia is Trefl Sopot (Arka Gdynia (basketball)). Polish League all-star has now been added. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:07, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:DaHuzyBru, I am sure that takes time. Thanks for your efforts. Is there a particular subset of basketball players that you enjoy working on (I am trying to figure out why this one got your attention out of the three I have listed on this page)?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was pinged and decided to help! Always happy to assist others with content from eurobasket. DaHuzyBru (talk) 08:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Matt Hicks (basketball)[edit]

Also if you’d go as far as Northern Illinois, then 1977 MAC POY Matt Hicks (basketball) is also needed. Rikster2 (talk) 12:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Often I do Chicagoland subjects that I think I can get to WP:GA level. Have to see how much is out there on Hicks.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:29, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unfortunately, no eurobasket profile for him. Sorry. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:DaHuzyBru Is that because of his age? Do the databases not go back to the 70s?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

DeMarcus Sharp[edit]

I created DeMarcus Sharp for the 2023 Southland POY. I am sure I will do more this week but if anyone wants to add to it feel free. Thanks! Rikster2 (talk) 20:39, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


With the COVID redshirt, I notice that Pete Maravich NCAA career scoring record listed at List of NCAA Division I men's basketball career scoring leaders is under assault. Is nothing else under assault or are the other pages not being updated?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:47, 14 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not sure that they've been updated for a minute, and could probably use some checking up. --fuzzy510 (talk) 20:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:Dale Arnett and I are religiously updating all of the stats pages, all it takes is a quick glance at editing history to see this. Not sure what all of the fuss is about. Note, it makes no sense in the least to update the career games played leaders page, because it's going to be a total editing shitshow from here until the end of the year. It'll be much easier to just do one massive end-of-season update. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:01, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Now that you called my attention to it, I see that the NCAA career records were updated December 5.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:04, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My apologies, and thank you for that. And I agree, one big end-of-season update makes much more sense. fuzzy510 (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with one end-of-season update for the games played list. The other lists are much easier to keep up with. The number of active players on various leaders lists that I've been keeping up with (or, in some cases, created): — Dale Arnett (talk) 20:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
* Men's career scoring leaders: One (Antoine Davis). Davis is also the only active player who's an all-time conference scoring leader, and one of only two who (to my knowledge) is his program's all-time leader (Darius McGhee being the other).
* Men's career three-point leaders: Three (Davis, McGhee, Umoja Gibson).
* Women's career three-point leaders: Two (Taylor Robertson, Taylor Mikesell).
* Women's career field-goal percentage leaders: One (Monika Czinano).


Can someone remind me about the rules regarding redshirting. Why is it that if you play 10 games early in the season you are eligible for a redshirt, but if you play 4 games late in the season, you are not. Specific case for my curiosity is Joey Baker.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In his case, I also need to know are graduate transfers limited to one season?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For grad transfers, they can play more than one season. For example, Cameron Johnson played two at UNC as a GT. Rikster2 (talk) 11:54, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks User:Rikster2!! O.K. back to the original question then. Why doesn't Joey Baker have any eligibility remaining?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:43, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
in his freshman season at Duke, Coach K activated him too late in the season for it to count as a redshirt year (link). Rikster2 (talk) 13:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So I have read the article and I don't understand. Playing 10 games in November and December does not burn a redshirt, but playing one in February and eventually a total of four late season games does? Why? Why does it matter that it was February? Is there a redshirt date during the season?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
why don’t you Google the NCAA record book? There is a point in the season after which you can’t play games and still redshirt. I don’t know exactly where the cutoff is but that’s the reason. Rikster2 (talk) 20:37, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In basketball, you burn a redshirt if you see *any* action. I don't know who you are talking about with regards to 10 games played and still redshirting, but that was almost certainly a medical redshirt, or some other hardship waiver. fuzzy510 (talk) 02:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Definitely not true. Lots of guys play lots of games and find themselves getting a medical redshirt. I was not sure that there is an actual deadline after which a single game burns an entire year. Here are a couple examples of redshirts with lots of games played Spike Albrecht, Jon Horford, David Lighty.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talkcontribs) 16:18, 20 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Baker was never injured, it is different when an injury drives the redshirt. Again, I would encourage you to do the research by googling the NCAA basketball rule book. I would think that would spell it out exactly Rikster2 (talk) 20:54, 20 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As Rikster said, a medical redshirt allows for a redshirt to be awarded after the fact when a player doesn't play due to injury concerns. Joey Baker was never injured, he planned to sit out for the year and then didn't. fuzzy510 (talk) 15:14, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Comment/Proposal Should we include the redshirt year as part of the years played for a college within the infobox? While the player didn't play in any games, they did occupy a roster spot and, if applicable, use up a scholarship during that year while likely taking part in team activities and practices. Best, GPL93 (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For instance, Obi Toppin's, "college" label in the infobox would say 2017–2020 instead of 2018–2020. I feel like the current way that college year are listed may give readers who are less familiar with college sports the impression that the player spent the year away from the sport entirely. Best, GPL93 (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am against this because I think most readers are mainly curious what years the player actually competed/what teams they were on. In an infobox, which only can give an overview, this feels most accurate. You also get into issues with the many years of freshman ineligibility where players only got 3 years to play. Insinuating that those guys competed 4 years for State U feels way off to me. The prose should explain the details of their eligibility journey, if relevant. Also, there are other ways that playing in a real game matters, like if they never do the college shouldn't appear in the infobox and the player category does not get applied. Having redshirt years listed for new players just confuses the issue for new editors IMO Rikster2 (talk) 14:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose The only time this is appropriate is when the redshirt is in the middle years like Rob Pelinka.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:52, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose per Rikster2. Especially for when the NCAA didn't allow freshmen to compete on the varsity level, but they were ostensibly "on" the roster even though they weren't. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:39, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose No reason to change the current framework. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 23:53, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comment No opinion on the starting year, but defintiely oppose for redshirts in the middle years and potential pedantic spans like (2000–2001, 2002–2005), if they redshirted in 2001–02.—Bagumba (talk) 05:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hampton Pirates/Lady Pirates[edit]

Is there a reason that Hampton Pirates men's basketball is as it is, but Hampton Lady Pirates basketball exists? Which one is correct, and which one needs to be moved (men's to no gender tag, or Lady Pirates to Pirates women's)? fuzzy510 (talk) 21:40, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

ESPN, Fox Sports, and Hampton themselves refer to the team as Lady Pirates. A GHit result shows 3,030 results for "Hampton Lady Pirates basketball" versus 1,470 for "Hampton Pirates women's basketball". The only legit source which contradicts the use of Lady Pirates is the NCAA, whose page refers to the team as simply Pirates (link). So, I guess Lady Pirates is correct? SportsGuy789 (talk) 15:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The inclusion of "men's" is probably to combat gender bias that "<school> <mascot> basketball" is assumed to be the men's program. On the other hand, "Lady Pirates" presumably is WP:COMMONNAME over "Pirates women's". —Bagumba (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Michigan State - Minnesota cancellation/postponement[edit]

The 2023 Michigan State University shooting caused a game between 2022–23 Michigan State Spartans men's basketball team and 2022–23 Minnesota Golden Gophers men's basketball team to be either cancelled or postponed. Is the game going to be made up? Based on the schedules of the two teams it would be impossible to make up the game without at least one team having to play on back to back nights or reschedule another game.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

None of us can possibly know that, Tony, but whenever a determination is made, we can update the articles accordingly. In the meantime, this area is WP:NOTAFORUM to discuss things like this. fuzzy510 (talk) 04:42, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
User:Fuzzy510 Many secondary source articles use the word postponed and many use the work cancelled. I don't see how WP:NOTAFORUM is relevant. I am trying to assess whether we have the proper content in the articles right now.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:28, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If it's not definitive, why wouldn't we just call it "postponed" for now until a formal announcement is made otherwise?—Bagumba (talk) 05:37, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Both institutions involved have the game currently listed as postponed. Unless there has been a recent article (which is to say, not reporting on the initial fact that the game is not being played as scheduled) stating that the game has been cancelled, it would be inappropriate to say that the game is anything other than postponed. fuzzy510 (talk) 05:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Head men's basketball coaches" vs. "Men's basketball head coaches"[edit]

I've been going through and starting to create lists of each college's head coaches to fill some of the red links on the navboxes, and I've noticed that the nomenclature that's used for those lists is somewhat inconsistent. The red links on the templates all point to "List of (team name) (men's) basketball head coaches," but a couple of other pages have been created using the verbiage "List of (team name) head (men's) basketball coaches." Additionally, our formatting clashes with the college football coaching lists - for example, List of Alabama Crimson Tide head football coaches, where the sport comes after "head."

What do people think here? I think the way we have it set up is probably proper, but I think it's worth discussing. fuzzy510 (talk) 10:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Fuzzy510: I'm not a grammar expert, so not sure if there are any applicable rules here in that regard. In its absence, it seems like the most general concept is that of a head coach. So I'd tend to prefer "<team> <sport> head coach" —Bagumba (talk) 05:08, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tourney parameter in season infobox[edit]

I'd appreciate any feedback at a discussion I started at {{Infobox college sports team season}}. We don't seem to be using the tourney or tourney_result parameters as the template documentation suggests. Hoof Hearted (talk) 16:16, 1 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorting of conference standings...revisited[edit]

I'd like to gauge the feelings of project members about how teams should be sorted on conference standings. I and many others I've seen have traditionally used the following data to sort teams in the lists: Conference winning percentage, Number of conference wins (with consideration for 0–0 teams being placed at .500 and sorting winless teams in order of fewest losses), Overall winning percentage, Number of overall wins (same considerations as conference wins data), and Alphabetical order. Notably, most (but not all) conference websites I've looked at appear to use this method.

But now with regular seasons wrapping up, a common issue has once again arisen where some other editors prefer to sort standings based on conference tournament tiebreakers. I don't like this method as well, as tiebreakers only exist for tournament seeding purposes and generally aren't intended to be applied to standings.

I also think there should be a single standard for sorting regardless of when an update is being made, to reduce confusion. Tournament seeding tiebreakers are meaningless until the end of the regular season, so it's essentially a waste of time (and original research, really) to apply them at every update throughout the season rather than being able to do a simple scan of the wins and losses in the list to sort them on a daily basis. (Conference tournament tiebreakers can't even be applied at all before conference play begins.)

I found this discussion from 14 years ago where there wasn't really any resolution, so I'm hoping we can try again to achieve a consensus to guide editors trying to keep these standings updated. Thoughts? WildCowboy (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For clarification - do the conferences that use the criteria that you listed then go by the conference tournament tiebreakers at the end of the season if there is a discrepancy? Or will they list the final standings true to the order you listed, even if that means the standings do not also serve as a sequential list of the tournament seedings? fuzzy510 (talk) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have always sorted by 1.) conference winning percentage, 2.) overall winning percentage, 3. alphabetical.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Most of the ones I've seen do not use tournament tiebreakers at any point when it comes to standings, so even at the end of the season they don't necessarily match the tournament seed order. WildCowboy (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In that case, yes, I support wholeheartedly trying to standardize the standings (heh) on that set of criteria. fuzzy510 (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Appreciate the feedback here. Would love it if a few more folks could weigh in so we have a stronger consensus to rely on whenever this issue comes up as it does at the end of pretty much every regular season. WildCowboy (talk) 03:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'd go by reliable sources. For example, in the Pac-12 in 2021–22, Washington State, Oregon, and Washington were 11–9 in the conference. On p. 11 of the Pac-12 record book, they show as tied for fifth place. On p. 8, which shows the standings by year, the tied teams are sorted by overall record.—Bagumba (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Does anyone else feel it would be useful if 2023_NCAA_Division_I_men's_basketball_tournament#Automatic_qualifiers had an additional column for tournament championship date?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What value does that information have to justify its inclusion in the tournament article? fuzzy510 (talk) 22:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I find myself trying to figure out when more bids will be determined. Having a dates column would enable us to sort to figure things out. My team (Michigan) is on the bubble (and may have fallen off of it today). I am trying to figure out how many top conference tournament seeds were upset.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can see why that would be useful for you, but I'm not seeing why that's a useful inclusion on this year's tournament's main page. fuzzy510 (talk) 04:04, 6 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's clutter for someone who reads this years, even weeks from now.—Bagumba (talk) 07:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Conference N/F/RoY templates[edit]

Bouncing around yesterday, I saw that {{Big Ten Conference Women's Basketball Freshman of the Year navbox}} and {{Big East Conference Women's Basketball Freshman of the Year navbox}}, but the ACC does not have a Freshman/Rookie/Newcomer of the Year template for women because Diamond DeShields does not have a FoY/RoY/NoY template. I have not seen any FoY/RoY/NoY templates for the men. Do we want Men's and Women's basketball the have conference FoY, NoY or RoY templates?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:26, 6 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm a hard no on those. SportsGuy789 (talk) 06:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, if anything, I think these aren't necessarily worth including as it is. fuzzy510 (talk) 14:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Should we delete the ones that exist?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:03, 8 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm tempted to say let's just leave them, and if somebody outside the project wants to delete them, I wouldn't put up a fight, but I think there's a good argument either way. fuzzy510 (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think people inside the project should decide whether we want to develop the complete set or delete what is out there. Why would we leave that decision to people outside the project.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm with Tony on that. WP:CBBALL consensus should come from within the project. Regarding the templates in question, my stance is that any award which is grade-specific should not have one (eliminating Freshman OTY, Sophomore OTY etc.). I don't think there ought to be Newcomer OTY or Rookie OTY either, as they're not "major" awards for that conference and they begin to violate WP:CREEP and WP:NENAN. Tony, if you open a mass-TfD I'll chime in with these thoughts. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, that makes much more sense. Completely in favor. fuzzy510 (talk) 17:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

NIT bracket formatting[edit]

Since the NIT uses a campus play format where the higher seed is the home team, why do we present brackets with the high seed above the low seed? Usually the home team is at the bottom when scores are presented in two rows.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

When scores are displayed, sure, but that's not a common principle when displaying brackets at all. Common bracket display involves having the higher-seeded team displayed on the top line, regardless of where the games are being played. -fuzzy510 (talk) 17:36, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
They're probably referring to something like 2021–22 NFL playoffs#Bracket, which isn't readily apparent that the home team is on the bottom, unless you happen to be a fan enough to know the stadiums. If the home team tidbit really was to be effectively conveyed, it'd just use a simple symbol, or at least explain in a key. —Bagumba (talk) 10:09, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source request[edit]

What is the most official source for 2021–22_NCAA_Division_I_men's_basketball_season#Statistical_leaders?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What is the specific question/concern? Is it that year or official stats for any year? Rikster2 (talk) 01:37, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am working on Foster Loyer. It would be nice if that year's section had a citation. I can find other citations for the prose in his article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you ever need reliable sources for yearly stats leaders, use (scroll down). For Loyer specifically, see SportsGuy789 (talk) 13:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Using nowrap[edit]

I saw this line at Drew Timme, but have seen elsewhere before:

{{nowrap|2× Consensus second-team [[NCAA Men's Basketball All-Americans|All-American]] ([[2021 NCAA Men's Basketball All-Americans|2021]], [[2022 NCAA Men's Basketball All-Americans|2022]])}}

Its bad to nowrap an entire line; it's meant for small snippets. Per the {{nowrap}} documentation: Use this template sparingly...The size of the nowrapped text becomes the minimum width of that paragraph and that can negatively influence the ability of the page to adapt to smaller screens, or alternate representations of the content.

We can't assume everyone has got a wide screen, or easier yet, think mobiles. This just makes for a potentially giant infobox. Generally, let the platform decide how and when to wrap. —Bagumba (talk) 09:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think that is the work of a specific user. Probably best to direct them here or address on their talk page. Rikster2 (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For Timme, I traced it to this edit by SportsGuy789Bagumba (talk) 14:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Help with All-America team article formatting[edit]

A while back someone added a navigation infobox to the yearly All-American articles (example). I like the change but think it would look better if the picture montage could be inside the infobox instead of below it. Does anyone have the skill to make the change? If someone can do the 2023 article I can implement the change to the others. Rikster2 (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Frietjes: – might you be able to take a look? SportsGuy789 (talk) 00:14, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rikster2, like this? FYI, you might want to make sure that the sidebar/images are appearing on mobile. if not, you can switch from sidebar to infobox. Frietjes (talk) 15:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. The sidebar does not show up in the mobile version. Is it as simple as moving this to an infobox template? Or creating one? Sorry, I am not very knowledgeable around these aspects of WP. Rikster2 (talk) 16:49, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But yes, the look is perfect Rikster2 (talk) 16:50, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rikster2, the most straightforward solution for mobile would be to use infobox award, but there may be another infobox that's more appropriate. Frietjes (talk) 19:52, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

TfD notice: Big Ten Conference Women's Basketball Defensive Player of the Year navbox[edit]

A template that is of interest to this project has been listed for deletion. If you feel strongly enough to chime in, here is the TfD: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 March 16#Template:Big Ten Conference Women's Basketball Defensive Player of the Year navbox. Thanks. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Infobox highlights[edit]

There's an IP editor at Zach Edey who has twice moved Big Ten tournament MVP ahead of his All-Big Ten entries. I don't see that as the norm from a sampling of the other Big Ten winners, nor do I recall that ordering with other conferences. My suggestion would be to move the tourney MVP after All-Big Ten and All-Defensive, which I believe is the de facto standard also. —Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Support Bagumba's proposal. I wasn't sure if there was ever a formal discussion about the listing priority of that honor, but it's always been placed at the very bottom of all college honors. It's notable and infobox-worthy, but it's a far cry from being more important than being all-conference or all-defensive teams. SportsGuy789 (talk) 03:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support this proposal. I'm also not sure if there's ever been a formal discussion, but this seems like as good of a reason as any to have it, and I agree with everything that's been said so far. fuzzy510 (talk) 04:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support - How about we codify the de facto standard order of college highlights:
  1. National title
  2. Final Four MOP
  3. National POY
  4. Other National honors/All-American
  5. Conference POY
  6. Conference specialty awards (DPOY, FOY, etc.)
  7. All-Conference
  8. Conference specialty teams (all-defensive, all-freshman, etc.)
  9. Conference tourney MVP
  10. retired number

Would be good to just spell these out. Not sure why anyone would make a big deal of moving the conference tourney MVP up but that is what we have. Rikster2 (talk) 12:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

User:Rikster2 can you extend the list into High school accomplishments Parade AA, McDAAG, Jordan Brand Classic, State Mr. Basketball, National Mr. Basketball, Which High school NPoYs, High school national championship, Which HS ASG MVPs. I am not sure which even belong and which don't. E.g., it Seems McDAAG and McDAAG MVP are generally included, but Jordan Brand, not so much. Also, do any of the following belong:
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Jordan Brand Classic has generally not been listed. Not sure, but is it limited to Nike players? At any rate, it doesn't seem to get much mainstream attention. —Bagumba (talk) 06:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is usually just about all the MCDAAG players plus 2 since Jordan uses 13 man rosters and MCDAAG uses 12. I seem to see it in a lot of infoboxes, but I am not sure if it belongs. I don't understand the meaning of a Nike high school player.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I wasnt sure if HS players already had informal affiliations with Nike, and were the ones that they picked for game. —Bagumba (talk) 04:15, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd move "6. Conference specialty awards" after all-conference. Being one of the top overall players is more notable than being the top of some niche. FOY and all-freshman I'd leave on bottom, before retired numbers. Then, that would generally be consistent with the NBA honors at WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS.—Bagumba (talk) 06:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Stats table request[edit]

Can someone do a college stat table for Foster Loyer.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:53, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Relevant discussion regarding College of Charleston vs. Charleston[edit]

There's a renaming discussion taking place for College of Charleston Cougars that I think is probably relevant to this project's interests. -fuzzy510 (talk) 18:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Request for third opinion[edit]

There is an ongoing dispute involving @Jmg38 and @Legolover26 on Talk:NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament upsets#Trivia only when nothing else to say regarding whether a discussion of games in which a 16 seed nearly beat a 1 seed should be removed from that page. Legolover26 (talk) 17:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would be more worried about how undersourced it is and whether it passes WP:NLIST. While I don't doubt there are significant sources of some sort of lists of NCAA upsets, right now it looks alot like original research. Alvaldi (talk) 18:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
WP:NLIST isn't applicable here, because it's not a standalone list. It's purely a content dispute, and agree about the sourcing concern. —Bagumba (talk) 04:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Help understanding NCAA record book[edit]

It seems that the NCAA single-season free throw percentage leader lists have had varying qualifications. I do not understand why Foster Loyer does not qualify based on his 2021-22 season. here is a 2010 record book (see page 20) with a lot of asterisks. here is a 2023 record book (see page 20, what are the asterisks for?). Why doesn't Loyer qualify for the single-season all-time leaders?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:34, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The free throw percentage list on page 20 of the 2023 record book is in the freshman record section, and Loyer wasn't a freshman that year. The overall single season record list for that is on page 15 and he just missed with 93.5 in 2021–22 while it takes 93.8 to make the list. As for daggers in the 2010 record book, which I assume is what you meant by asterisks, those denote season leaders. So like JJ Redick is 4th on the list but he doesn't get a dagger because he didn't lead the country in 2004. Blake Ahearn with the overall record was the leader that year. WildCowboy (talk) 03:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thx.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Can someone who knows international basketball and minor league basketball fill in the playing career section of Gerry McNamara's infobox.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In relation to my work on Foster Loyer, I have stubbed out Rick Suder. this source says he was a CBA draftee. I could use help with this guys playing career from anyone. @DaHuzyBru:.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:45, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I will look into the CBA angle in my media guides. If he played in the CBA I will find him. But, looking at the article, Davidson was not in the Atlantic 10 in the 1980s, they were in the SoCon. They joined the A10 in 2014. Rikster2 (talk) 13:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ah, I see, he played for Duquesne, not Davidson Rikster2 (talk) 13:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suder never played in the CBA. Rikster2 (talk) 23:59, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thx. I am hoping User:DaHuzyBru can bring me news of international play. Maybe he played in Serbia.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No eurobasket profile, so not sure sorry. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should USBWA honorable mentions be added to All-American articles?[edit]

It looks like the USBWA has honorable mention All-American selections like the AP does with that practice starting last year. Should we add those selections under the AP listings? Best, GPL93 (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seems reasonable to add there. —Bagumba (talk) 04:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Creating a List of NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament winning coaches?[edit]

Currently no such list exists on Wikipedia but there are similar lists for the Super Bowl, NBA Finals and other championships. The closest page to this is this list which is a list of Final Four coaches and also a list of coaches with multiple championships. Should this list be split to create two separate pages, one about Final Four coaches and one about champion coaches, or should the list simply be reworked?--Newtothisedit (talk) 20:09, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Honestly, a Final Four coaches article that envelops the contents of the more specific championship coaches – that makes tidying sense to me. SportsGuy789 (talk) 03:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Make sure it meets WP:LISTN: One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. My rule of thumb is, "Can I write an interesting paragraph or two about this grouping from these sources?" It doesn't happen often, but I was just in an AfD where it seemed LISTN was met, but it got merged anyways. Per WP:N: This is not a guarantee that a topic will necessarily be handled as a separate, stand-alone page. Editors may use their discretion to merge or group two or more related topics into a single article.Bagumba (talk) 04:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Another option is to take NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament Final Four appearances by school, and modify it to a table with the rows as years, and have sortable columns—one for the team and then their coach next to it.—Bagumba (talk) 04:34, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Bagumba: Doesn't that already exist at List of NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament Final Four participants. If anything shouldn't the FF appearances by school and the participants be merged? I think they can be merged and have a coaches column on the yearly list. The Final four appearances is redundant because a similar list is on the Final Four participants page as it is. It should be deleted.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:58, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Note It looks like Newtothisedit found List of NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament Final Four appearances by coach after the fact (they changed their link up top[4]) —Bagumba (talk) 05:03, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, that's the list I was originally referring to, I linked the wrong list originally, and changed without an update as I wasn't aware that I needed to do that. I'm personally leaning towards keeping the lists of schools and coaches seperate and just changing the format (and perhaps the title) of the coaches list. Newtothisedit (talk) 14:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Consider just boldly merging and redirecting. It's less bureaucratic than going the WP:AFD route, which would probably lead to the same result anyways. —Bagumba (talk) 05:09, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
^ This. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. What about appearances by school and appearances by school and conference?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 22:50, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Honestly, looking at both of them......does anybody else think that the second list is too crufty to justify even merging it in? I feel like adding conference affiliation to the first list would just clutter it up further, and I'm not sure that "number of bids earned by teams that currently reside in this conference" is actually a useful metric. Whenever I see references to past bids from teams in a conference, it's referencing members of the conference at that previous time. Nobody talks about bids earned by the American Athletic Conference before it existed. And saying the Missouri Valley Conference's most recent Sweet 16 was in 2010 is factually incorrect, it doesn't lose Wichita State's appearance in 2015 just because the Shockers moved conferences. fuzzy510 (talk) 23:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I have newfound page creation energy. I am quite sure that I am on the fringes of notability, but with my Chicago Public Library account I can access statewide newspapers to buff up a page for a barely (if at all) notable subject. Max Bielfeldt may have a claim to be the first Big Ten basketball player to win B1G championships with two different Universities (if this source is an RS). He is a former B1G 6th man of the year. Before that he was heralded as the best low post player to ever come out of Peoria, Illinois. He was 1st team All-state in a class of Illinois players that has produced several NBA prospects. His sister was an All-star high school basketball player who is married to Meyers Leonard. He is from the Bielfeldt family (his grandparents) that has donated $Millions to University of Illinois and has their name on the Athletic Administration building there. Max's career high in high school was 40, which fell one short of his grandfather, who played football at Illinois in the 1950s, according to the press. Because of his family's prominence in Central Illinois, there was a lot of press about him in high school and I think notability is permanent. He has gone pro in a non-sports profession. Is he notable enough by WP:GNG to have a WP page although he almost never even started in college and never played pro?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A lot of what I'm reading here seems like inherited notability - he's notable because of the accomplishments of other people he is related to. Based strictly on what I'm reading here, I don't think he would pass GNG on his own. -fuzzy510 (talk) 23:46, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well. He got a lot of press 1. for his rise to being a 1st team All-State high school basketball player as the best low post player out of Peoria. The Peoria and Pekin, Illinois papers covered him quite a bit. I think he may pass WP:LOCAL (Honestly, I have had several articles that were already GAC based on just this stage of a person's life. Most of them went on to play in the NBA however.) 2. A little press For his role on the national runner-up 2013 Michigan team when he was captain of the scout team. 3. For being B1G sixth man of the year for B1G champion 2016 Indiana. I am not sure where it is going to fall. It may not pass.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 24 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ordinality of Cousinship[edit]

Juwan Howard is some type of cousins with Jalen McDaniels and Jaden McDaniels per [5], [6] and [7]. My guess is that he might be first cousins with their father. Anyone have information on this?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:17, 24 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]