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February 22[edit]

Need help with grammar check[edit]

I'm going to add following paragraph to 92nd Academy Awards, but before that, I'd like someone to check grammar.

In South Korea, questions arose as to whether it was appropriate for Miky Lee to give acceptance speech when she was not a part of Parasite's Best Picture nomination (which were Kwak Sin-ae and Bong Joon-ho). As a response, Kwak wrote on her social media post that it was arranged in advance so, in the event Parasite wins the Best Picture, she would give a quick speech and Lee would give one next. Kwak also wrote that Bong was out of words after winning three categories prior.[1][2]
  1. 조재영 (February 12, 2020). 곽신애 대표 "CJ 부회장 소감, 우리끼리 미리 정해놨다" (in Korean). Yonhap News Agency. Retrieved 22 February 2020.
  2. 유수경 (February 12, 2020). 곽신애 대표 "이미경 부회장 작품상 소감, 사전에 정한 것". Hankook Ilbo (in Korean). Retrieved 22 February 2020.

JSH-alive/talk/cont/mail 12:04, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Assuming your assertions are accurate, you could word it this way:
In South Korea, questions arose as to whether it was appropriate for Miky Lee to give an acceptance speech when she was not a part of Parasite's Best Picture nominated team, which were Kwak Sin-ae and Bong Joon-ho. In response, Kwak wrote in a social media post that it was arranged in advance that, in the event Parasite were to win the Best Picture award, she would give a quick speech and Lee would give one next. Kwak also wrote that Bong was out of words after winning three categories prior
Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:10, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I think that will do. Thank you for helping me. JSH-alive/talk/cont/mail 15:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
"which were Kwak Sin-ae and Bong Joon-ho" sounds godawful. "In South Korea, the question arose as to whether it was appropriate for Miky Lee to give an acceptance speech when Kwak Sin-ae and Bong Joon-ho won the Best Picture award. Kwak responded in a social media post that it was arranged in advance that, if Parasite won, she would give a quick speech, and Lee would give the next one. Kwak also wrote that Bong had run out of words after winning in three other categories." Clarityfiend (talk) 08:38, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


Today's "On this day" box lists the following:

  • 1371 – Robert II became King of Scots as the first monarch of the-then House of Stewart.

What is "the-then" supposed to mean? JIP | Talk 15:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Presumably on the basis that the house no longer exists (since it existed at the time, it’s superfluous in this context). But there shouldn’t be a hyphen. And it’s spelled Stuart, anyway. MapReader (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Then (1371) it wasn't. As noted below, it was spelled "Stewart" until the 1500s, at that time the Frenchified spelling "Stuart" began to be used, by several branches of the family, including Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, whose father used "Stewart" exclusively, and Mary, Queen of Scots, whose father James V of Scotland also used "Stewart". Coincidentally, Henry and Mary were wed and produced a son, James who continued to use the "Stuart" spelling. Henry was a distant cousin from the Stewarts of Darnley branch of the family, the two branches had split in the 1290s. Interestingly, the "Stewart" spelling did continue on in some branches as well, for example the Stewarts of Aubigny (itself a branch of the Stewarts of Darnley), who lived in France, rather ironically kept the Stewart spelling long after the Scottish/English branches had adopted the French-style spelling. Some of the Aubigny Stewarts came back to England to fight for the Royalist cause in the Civil Wars, and later settled back in Scotland during the Restoration, after several deaths, marriages, and inheritances, the branch becomes the Gordon-Lennox family, headed by Charles Gordon-Lennox, 11th Duke of Richmond, currently the Dukiest Duke in the Realm (he holds 4 dukedoms independently). But that's me and my crazy digressions. The spelling "Stuart" only really applies to Mary and Henry, Lord of Darnley and their direct descendents, that name eventually died out when Henry Benedict Stuart, the last living Stuart-name-bearing descendent of Mary and Henry, died without issue in 1807. Being a priest, he was unlikely to have had any issue anyways. In 1371, there were not Stuarts, only Stewarts. --Jayron32 21:09, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Misplaced hyphen. It should be "the then–House of Stewart" (i.e., what was then called the House of Stewart but later called the House of Stuart), with an en dash rather than a hyphen because "House of Stewart" is an open compound. I think the "then" could just be omitted, though. Deor (talk) 16:11, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
The hyphen in the original is totally off, similar to "19-th century art" (bad) instead of "19th-century art" (OK). But I think neither side of then used as an adjective needs a hyphen. (I actually recently removed such a hyphen.)  --Lambiam 17:39, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I see that Valereee has deleted the "then" and hyphen in the "On this day" listing. It reads fine now. Deor (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Deor, it was brought up at WP:ERRORS as an issue --valereee (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

February 23[edit]

Name for Japanese (cypress?) bark cladding/walls[edit]

Bark cladding

The last item in List of partitions of traditional Japanese architecture is bark walls or cladding. The source does not give a Japanese name. I've tried to find it, but the only hint I have is that it's probably cypress (sugi) bark. Does anyone have the name, and ideally a citable source? Reportedly more common in the south of Japan, and, by the 1880s, only used as a sole wall material by the poor. HLHJ (talk) 04:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Difficult. If this helps anyone, the photo is of a building named Kangien (which might be written as Kangi-en; anyway, 咸宜園). Great, I thought: it's going to be a registered national cultural whatsit, and each of these has its own web page, in which the architecture is described in (to me, pretty inscrutable) detail. Alas no: here's the page, but the building was so designated back in 1932. The citation is terse indeed. (It's also written in the stiff bureaucratese of the time, which doesn't help.) Here's the Official Web Page of the building, which conveniently says that Kangien Kyōiku Kenkyū Sentā (咸宜園教育研究センター , i.e. Kangien Education Research Centre) can be mailed via this form. Just in case nobody can tell you the answer. -- Hoary (talk) 07:50, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Locher, Mira (2015). Traditional Japanese Architecture: An Exploration of Elements and Forms. Turtle Publishing. ISBN 978-4805313282. says: "Even the bark of certain trees is used in construction, such as the layers of cypress bark used for roofing (hiwada-buki)…". From Chapter 7; it's an e-book, but the URL suggests p. 203. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
A common term for "siding" in the sense of "cladding" in Japanese is the loan word サイディング (saidingu). That would make "bark cladding" 樹皮サイディング (juhi saidingu). However, this does not seem used much except for alibaba ads. In most cases I can find of bark-cladded house walls, they are described by circumlocations such as "bark applied to the outer wall (外壁)". I see references to ヒバ (hiba), which can also mean "cypress". Elsewhere there were references to cedar bark.  --Lambiam 11:01, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Hiba is Thujopsis dolabrata according to our article. Other Japanese cypresses used in construction are Hinoki which is Chamaecyparis obtuse, sawara is Chamaecyparis pisifera and sugi is Cryptomeria japonica. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

My source, the 1885 book Japanese Homes and Their Surroundings: "In the southern provinces a rough house-wall is made of wide slabs of bark, placed vertically, and held in place by thin strips of bamboo nailed cross-wise. This style is common among the poorer houses in Japan; and, indeed, in the better class of houses it is often used as an ornamental feature, placed at the height of a few feet from the ground."[1]

I dug through Commons and collected a number of images: Commons:Category:Bark cladding, a second one of which is now shown here. Three are from the Kanazawa Yuwaku Edomura, an open-air museum which has some English materials online, but I have not been able to find a description of the walls on its English site. It is of course possible that there is not a standard Japanese name. JAANUS, which is usually an excellent source for Japanese architecture (if dense to the point of being rather inscrutable), has entries on bark roofing, but none on bark walling. I should really have added more of this info initially.

Thank you all for the useful links. I love archaic bureaucratese; so many of its faults are universal (and fun to lampoon). From the information provided by Alansplodge, it seems quite possible that the bark may be cypress, but not sugi. I don't have a reliable source that says it's even cypress, and Lambiam may be right that it's cedar (it looks like cedar, fibrous and flexible). I think an inquiry to the people who maintain such properties might be a good next step, but I'll leave it a couple more days as this has only just been posted. HLHJ (talk) 16:32, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Just be careful with your cedars; the American red cedar, used for all kinds of outdoor woodwork, isn't a cedar at all, it's a cypress. Alansplodge (talk) 22:06, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
You're quite right, Alansplodge, I was thinking of fiber products made from Thuja plicata bark. HLHJ (talk) 06:16, 25 February 2020 (UTC)


True cedars are not much used in construction, except in the Bible. Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

February 27[edit]


I just came across "Dantesque" in a book I'm reading. In my head I pronounced it as "Dan-te-esque" (3 syllables). Then I queried myself, since it's spelt as if it's "Dan-tesque" (2 syllables). But I doubt it's actually spoken that way.

So, is this an example of a single vowel acting as if it were a double vowel, where each vowel has a different function and sound? Or am I pronouncing it wrong? Or should it be spelt "Danteesque"?-- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:05, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Side question: Why are "Dante", "Grande" and probably others, which are Italian words, often pronounced in the anglosphere as if they were French up till the final e, then Italian for the final e? Italians would never say "Donte, Gronde" but "Dahnte, Grahnde", and the French would say "Dont, Grond", with the final e unsounded (approx prons, but you know what I mean). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:13, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Re side question: I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, Jack, because as a Midwestern American I tend—if I'm understanding you correctly—to pronounce "Don" (nickname of Donald) pretty much the same as the "Dahn" in Dante. The answer to your question, however, is probably lurking somewhere in the article Phonological history of English open back vowels. What gets me is the way Brits tend to pronounce Dante's name as /ˈdæntiː/ (rhyming with "shanty"). Deor (talk) 09:01, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
This North Carolinian seconds your point. I have no clue what distinction Jack of Oz is trying to make between "Donte" and "Dahnte", as I read those two exactly the same--Khajidha (talk) 14:24, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
The idea seems to be the French-like pronunciation as "Dawnte", as in "gone". Jmar67 (talk) 14:37, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
See cot-caught merger. You can keep giving examples; most Americans will have no idea what you're talking about. The vowel in gone, don, Dante, etc. are all the same in General American and most regional dialects, or are recognized to be within free variation along a continuum, and they will not recognize those as meaningful distinct sounds. --Jayron32 19:00, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
In the Midwest, "gone" rhymes with "dawn", "fawn", "lawn" and "pawn", not with "Don" or the "Dan" in "Dante". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:03, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
For me, "gone" rhymes with "on"; "Dawn", "fawn", "lawn", and "pawn" rhyme; and "Don" and "Dan" as in "Dante" are the same, but the sound in each group is distinct. --Khajidha (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
In the Midwest, gone rhymes with on, dawn, fawn, lawn, and pawn. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:38, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
See wikt:Dantesque. Jmar67 (talk) 02:57, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I was looking at that entry in the New Oxford American Dictionary on my iPhone. Either "Dantesque" or "Dante-esque". Jmar67 (talk) 03:02, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
The problem Americans have in hearing the distinction Jack is making is not due to the cot-caught merger but rather to the father-bother merger. —Mahāgaja · talk 22:12, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Even a frog-eater knows the difference between a and o. —Tamfang (talk) 01:39, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I think this is the rare example of an instance to follow the New Yorker's style guide and use diaeresis: Danteësque. Most people would probably go for Dante-esque. Dante-like or Dante-ish might work. If none of these work, it would be best to rewrite the sentence in a way that avoids the matter. Temerarius (talk) 05:32, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Translation request (French to English)[edit]

What does the French phrase "Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait" mean? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 20:01, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Google Translate, for what it's worth, says it means "If youth knew, if old age could", which sounds like various proverbs. An example would be, "Too soon old, too late smart." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:06, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
I would prefer a translation by an actual human being rather than an automatically-generated computer translation. They tend not to be very good. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 20:08, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
It is a proverb. "If young people knew, if older folks still could" captures the meaning. Basically, young people don't know what to do with all their possibilities, and old folks, who would know how to use these talents, are no longer able to do so. Xuxl (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't know French fluently, but the machine translation seemed to be on the mark and obvious. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:49, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
See Wikiquote. Deor (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Which exactly matches Google Translate, and shows how old the idea is. (It probably goes back to ancient times.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:46, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
There is a longer version of the saying: "Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait, il n'y aurait rien qui ne puisse se faire." ("If youth knew, if old age could, there would be nothing that could not be done.") I prefer the pithier short version; next to suffering from explanitis, the apodosis overstates the potential of combining the vigor of youth with the wisdom of old age.  --Lambiam 07:49, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
The longer version is useful for those who don't get what the shorter version is saying. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:45, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Presumably younger folks. ;)  --Lambiam 15:11, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Cuban vs. Puerto Rican Spanish[edit]

How similar are Cuban Spanish and Puerto Rican Spanish? Our articles don't really go into that question. Specifically, I've been watching One Day at a Time, which is about a Cuban-American family in Los Angeles. The show is in English, but three of the major characters do sometimes speak Spanish. Since the characters are either Cuban or of Cuban ancestry, you'd expect them to speak Cuban Spanish, but the actors--Justina Machado, Marcel Ruiz, and Rita Moreno--are actually all Puerto Rican, and therefore presumably speak Puerto Rican Spanish. Are the two dialects different enough that native Spanish speakers can hear the difference? Do Spanish speakers watch the show and say, "Why do these supposedly Cuban people speak with a Puerto Rican accent?" Alternatively, do the actors actually Cubanize their Spanish for the show so that they don't sound Puerto Rican? Or are the two accents so similar that no one can really tell the difference anyway? --Mahagaja · talk 22:09, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

When they say something like ¿Como esta?, does it sound like they've dropped the "s"? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 22:44, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
@Baseball Bugs: I haven't noticed; I'll try to pay attention. But dropping /s/ in the coda of a syllable, or turning it to /h/, happens in a lot of different varieties of Spanish. In Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown one character says "Estamos fugitivas" and pronounces it "Ehtamoh fugitivah", and she's from Spain. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:52, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
@Baseball Bugs: Not a native Spanish speaker, but is it possible they were conjugating it with "usted", which takes the 3rd-person singular conjugation? --Tenryuu (🐲💬🌟) 02:02, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't know how they would be perceived by Spanish speakers, but both dialects fall into the Caribbean Spanish grouping... AnonMoos (talk) 04:27, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Here are links to some Quora questions with answers that strongly suggest the accents have diverged sufficiently to be perceptibly different. Of course, a good actor might be able to produce a passing imitation of a different accent than their own.
 --Lambiam 08:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Courtesy links for those without Quora accounts: [1][2][3] (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

February 28[edit]

How to write a name in Japanese[edit]

The name spelled in English is Byakuya Rinne. Rinne is the private name. Also how to spell "euphoria"?אילן שמעוני (talk) 19:08, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Byakuya is 白哉, but Rinne can be written using kanji in many different ways. Check out the middle column on this page. In hiragana it is りんね. Is this an existing person? It would help if you know the meaning of the given name (see here). There is no /fo/ syllable in Japanese, but to spell foreign words they use フォ (see O (kana)#Variant forms), so /juː.fo.ri.ja/ becomes ユーフォリア in katakana.  --Lambiam 19:56, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
It's a character in a (very vicious) computer game that was made in Japan. I assumed there should be some common name to spell it in Kanji. Euphoria is probably in Hiragana or Katakana (I have no idea what are the differences between these two) אילן שמעוני (talk) 20:16, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Transliterations of foreign words and names are nowadays always written in katakana.  --Lambiam 20:39, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Being the character she is it may be 稟寧 or 琳音. I don't want to make a stupid mistake, though. אילן שמעוני (talk) 20:23, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Do you have the name of the game? None of the twelve ways to spell the name in kanji gives a ghit. But in the manga 境界のRINNE the word is spelled in romaji.  --Lambiam 20:25, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
The game's name is Euphoria. The game title screen contains what you said - you can see it here אילן שמעוני (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Found it on the Japanese Wikipedia in their euphoria (ゲーム) article: 白夜 凛音. The same as the given name of the singer Rinne Yoshida, meaning "dignified sound".  --Lambiam 21:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Not written precisely the same – simplified vs. traditional .  --Lambiam 22:16, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
In the Wikipedia article the family name and given name are separated by a space, but in normal use no space would be inserted, giving 白夜凛音.  --Lambiam 21:10, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Great! Thank you very much! אילן שמעוני (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

February 29[edit]